Just thought I'd throw this out there to see what if any comments it generates. APS has petitioned for a Mandatory Demand charge for all its rate payers. Does anyone care or are you all comfortable with paying a demand charge that will most definitely affect your electric bill. Whether or not you stop using appliances during the demand hours you are still going to be hit with a demand charge. Why? Because you use your air conditioning, your refrigerator, probably your electric range and microwave and your TV during the demand period. There is no way for you to avoid a demand charge if it is approved by the ACC.
It is not for all rate payers. Anyone that averages less than 600 kWh per month will not be on a demand charge. Under the proposed plan more low income people will qualify for a discount. The people I know with a demand charge now seem to think it is ok since 3 to 8 is better than 12 to 7. People with condos, small homes in phase one, and the very frugal among us will most likely not be on a demand charge plan.
g47, you are correct. There are 4 tiers to the APS Manatory Demand rate structure. They are flat rate (which you alluded to), R1, R2, and R3. The flat rate tier according to APS is designed for low income, low use customers. However, this tier is an Opt-In tier meaning you don't get into this tier automatically. If you use 600kwh or less on average over a 12 month period you will have to request this tier otherwise you will automatically be put into one of the other three tiers. Also, according to APS this tier will only be available to a narrow group of customers. APS also states that 10% of current customers are already on a demand charge. They are basing all their calculations on for a mandatory demand charge this 10%. I don't think the average APS customer knows their average yearly kwh consumption. APS does have a web site with statistics on consumption, but I don't think it shows average yearly kwh consumption. APS is promoting this as a way for customers to save on electricity charges by monitoring appliance usage during the demand period (3-8) and turning off or not using some of your appliances. Aps does not provide a means for you to determine what appliances and other electric consuming devices actually use so that you can make an intelligent decision as to what to avoid using. Again, their web site does provide hourly statistics, but you will have to keep detailed notes on what devices you used at what times of the day and then correlate that data with the web site data. The APS web site data is not granular enough nor real time to be of real use of customers to determine kwh usage.
There's a handful of folks who will benefit from this change...the vast majority of folks will be gouged with higher rates and little or no understanding how this new money grab from APS will work. There was an interesting article in the AARP monthly news magazine where they decry this push for demand charges and note this is becoming more popular across the country. The sad fact is the Arizona Corporate Commission (ACC) has been bought and paid for by dark money (a good share of it from outside the state) and this travesty will sail through with ease.
I haven't seen anything about a low income tie in for the flat rate plan. I will look again. When I talked to the people at Sundial on June 13 it wasn't explained that way. The information given is not Sun City specific. A large number of "narrow group of people" live here. I don't know that they have many under 1000 sq ft residences in other parts of their territory. The APS web site will show your monthly use. You will have to get the average yourself.
For anyone looking to dig deeper regarding this rate hike/change this thread on City Data is pretty good.
G47. The chart in the above post was from APS at the June 13 dog and pony show. I didn’t make that chart, APS did. It was handed out and on display. I spoke to the APS rep and asked him point blank – “Is the first tier (Extra Small) automatic for low use customers?” and the answer was NO, it is Opt-In only. All the other tiers will be automatic based on your yearly kwh usage. Even in Sun City I think you will be hard pressed to find customers who use less than 600kwh on average especially in the summer months. If customers use the APS web site to download yearly spreadsheets to then develop yearly kwh I think they will be surprised on their yearly kwh use. There are however, frugal people out there that may use less then 600kwh. Even APS said this was a narrow group. APS’s Shift, Stagger, and Save is a nice slogan, but they offer no Real Time way of telling you what each electric consuming device is using. In order for the average customer to determine this would require them to do the following; Turn on the oven. Write down the time you turned it on and turn it off. Wait at least 15 minutes. Turn on the microwave. Write down the time you turned it on and then turn it off. Do this for every electric consuming device in your home to try and figure out what each device (even light bulbs) is using in kwh. Then try and correlate this information a month later to the data on the web site. This is all very time consuming, labor intensive, and not scientific at all. Besides that, the average customer will not do this. Your meter however is a Smart meter. APS uses it to track your usage. What APS isn’t telling you is that your Smart meter has the ability to tell YOU exactly what each device is using. The Smart meter has a Zigbee radio in it that can transmit usage data to either a hand held monitor or a web enabled monitor. The hand held monitor makes it very easy to see what each device in your home is using in kwh. The web enabled device can do almost the same but has the ability to store data and transmit it to a web site for detailed analysis of your kwh usage. The APS web site cannot do this. It is not granular enough. It only provides hourly statistics. I sent a letter to APS on May 9[SUP]th[/SUP] asking if they would enable the Zigbee radio so that I could use these devices to track my usage. I never even got a response from them. I then asked a rep on June 13[SUP]th[/SUP] the same question and gave him a copy of the letter and the specifics on the device. I have yet to hear back from him. These devices are in use right now in CA, Il, VT, HI, and SRP. They are also being tested in several other states. I can only assume that APS does not want you to know about these devices as you will gain a great deal on insight into specific device usage. The Zigbee radio transmissions do not affect the RF transmissions that APS uses to track your usage. If anyone is interested in investigating these devices I will post a link so you can read about them and judge for yourself whether they would be a benefit to you. Yes, there is a one time cost to these devices, but the price is reasonable for the data it gives you. Folks, APS has shortened the demand window to 3 to 8, but that is the time frame when most folks are returning from work. They will most likely turn down the thermostat in summer and raise it in winter. They will probably take a shower. If they have an electric water heater, usage goes up. They will probably prepare dinner – range on, oven on, microwave on. They may fire up their computer, turn on the TV, radio, or stereo. Turn on some lights. Turn on ceiling fans. Hopefully you can see where I’m going with the above. 3 to 8 is prime electric usage time. APS wants you to live like a hermit and use absolutely nothing during that time frame. They want to change your behavior and force you to conserve. When they touted conservation before, they found out that people actually were able to conserve by getting energy efficient appliances, getting LED light bulbs, or going Solar. In the aftermath of that conservation effort, APS found they were not making the same or more PROFIT than they had in years past. They cried wolf and now want to force most people onto a demand structure to increase their profits. APS by any definition is a business. NO business is guaranteed the same or increased profits year after year. They have to work to obtain them or increase their costs to you. APS is NOT in the business of helping customers save money on their electric bill. They are in business for one primary reason – make money. They are attempting to do that off the backs of their ratepayers. It may be worthwhile to submit your comments and concerns to the ACC at azcc.gov. Whether it will help sway the ACC is unknown, but historically the ACC has sided with the utilities. The comment by Ponderosa in the thread bPearson mentioned above is spot on. You can vote OUT the ACC members who are utility friendly. This is your only real way of influencing the ACC. If you do not vote or vote them back in you reap what you sow.
In 2015 my monthly average was 437kWh. I really don't make an effort to watch my usage. I think many condos use about the same. I always heard there were 9000 condos in Sun City but don't know how accurate that is. How many small houses are there? A couple thousand more? As I said before the narrow group is most likely a large part of Sun City. The summer average doesn't matter since they will use a yearly average. Every utility is trying to cut usage at peak hours. In Arizona peak hours mean much more than other parts of the country especially in the summer. Would you rather see rolling blackouts? People will have to adapt. In many places they have been doing it for years. I don't want to pay more, no one does. There is a Sun City resident running for ACC. Opt in isn't a big deal. I have no concerns about that.
There's 27,000 rooftops, a third of them are attached homes. That includes, twins, quads, patio homes and garden court apts (plus a couple of names not mentioned). The thing about them is they range in size from 900 to 2200 square feet. the average is probably in the 1300 sq ft range (far more smaller than larger ones). Single family detached homes make up the other two thirds. Again the range is all over the ballpark from 900 sq to 2200 sq (before additions). The average sq footage is 1500 to 1600 sq. ft. A good number of the smaller homes and condo's will have a higher percentage of single owners, meaning less utilization of utilities. With that out of the way, my hats off to SCR, his knowledge of the demand program is way beyond anything i know. I've read a bit, and the net result across the APS customer base will clearly generate way more revenue for them. SCR is right, they want a guaranteed profit and are using this ploy to get it. I suspect a good share of Sun City residents won't be affected; smaller, low utilization units and those gone for the hot summer months will most likely be okay. Rick Gray (Sun City resident) is running and for a republican, Rick is a pretty good guy. The problem is if he will be impacted when the bags of dark money start getting thrown his way (if they do). The house we live in is almost 3000 square and our usage is high. We keep our thermostats set at 82 or higher during the summer and seldom run our heat in the winter. We put solar on two years ago and it helped. As i understand this on demand program, solar users won't be impacted. Can you tell me SCR, is that correct?
BPearson Anyone who has solar installed by, (I believe by July 2017) will be grandfathered. No change for them. The year deadline is correct, and I think the month is as this is the month that any rate changes would start. In order for current non solar customers to make the change to solar by this date to take advantage of the grandfathering they must start the process now. The opt-in option has not and probably will not be advertised and thus people will get burned. This should not be an opt-in option as APS has all the data to know exactly who uses less than 600kwh. Everyone is watching this rate case because if it is passed APS will be the first in the country with a MANDATORY demand rate. If passed others will surely follow. G47 - when was the last time APS had a brownout in AZ? Not a power outage due to storms or traffic accidents, but a brownout? I can't remember 1 since I have been living here.
" Anyone that averages less than 600 kWh per month will not be on a demand charge." APS does not make it easy for a person to determine how many KW they use each month. I just spent nearly an hour trying to get the information on line about my account for the past year. Finally I got it. At first I was concerned because for 3 months (summer, or course) my KW are over 600. Then I read the above info that was posted and see that it is an average. I presume that is an average for the year. If so, I am safe. I have the time advantage plan but it might not be available any more. During the week I cook on my gas stove top. On weekends I use my oven (usually toaster) or microwave. I also do laundry and vacuum on weekends. APS wanted me to switch to another plan but I said "No".
pegmih - can I ask how you got that average figure. I've downloaded the past 5 years and the data is broken down by month and year. I was unable to find an average in that data or on the web site. What I had to do was extract each year from the downloaded data, input it to a new spreadsheet and then use the AutoSum/Average for the kwh column to develop an average for the year. The column labeled "Totalkwh" in the downloaded data is a total for each month if you downloaded a full year. You would then have to average that column for an average kwh for the year. Hope this helps.
I found it easy on the APS site to find my average monthly kilowatt usage. Just log in, go to "My Energy", select energy usage and then chose the "table" instead of the graph. You simply add up the kwh billed each month for a year and divide by 12. Unfortunately our figure comes to 760 so we miss the cutoff for no demand charge. I don't think there's any way to use less kwh for our 1300 sq ft home as we are here for the summer months and the A/C is our biggest source of kwh even though we set the thermostat at a high level.
I never said they did. I don't want them to start. With a growing population and warmer temps I could see that happening in the future.
Google APS solar demand charges. You will find more than enough articles to form an opinion. Some think APS will settle for demand charges on solar. SRP put demand charges on solar and new applications for solar dropped by 95%.
BP said I need to start the process now to meet the deadline . I cant find info on that...what can I do I now before Im ready to install it.
Plenty of time C, just has to be done by next summer (July?). The process is about 3 to 4 months once you start. I have to say, in my experience, there's way too many people in the solar business who talk through their ass. The business is like a revolving door of sales people, all just trying to sell you something. If you go to the link i posted above on page 1 from City Data, the guy who started the thread is in the solar business. If i were going to do it all over again, I would get a hold of him and see if he does the West Valley or if he at least knew someone reputable. I wouldn't recommend the company we used, though the panels had the highest rating in the industry at the time we leased them. You have time, but for now, start doing your research, the plans available and the companies selling/leasing them are over the ballpark.
